It’s something, we have to win a war of ideas ultimately and we have to discredit these ideas so that the next generation doesn’t find it so easy to believe these things. But
Joe Rogan: But how do they accept us? How do they accept any real solution coming from us when they know what we did in Iraq? When they know what we did in Afghanistan?
When they know what a fuckery we’ve made out of the whole thing. When they know how rampant corruption there is. When they know how much missing money there is.
How did they every look at this more than anything as a money grab? How did they ever look at it as like, “Oh, these are the Americans who are gonna teach us how to live.” How can anybody accept that?
Sam Harris: Well, it’s not. But…when you look at, again
Joe Rogan: It’s just necessary. No matter how they accept it. We just have to do it anyway.
Sam Harris: When you’re talking about the center of the bullseye, these people are truly unpersuadable. There was nothing we were gonna do that was gonna get Osama Bin Laden to say, you know, I had you guys all wrong you know…
Joe Rogan: <laughing>
Sam Harris: This is.. We’re friends now. And uhm, I mean, that’s so, that’s so… I think a certain percentage of people are un-persuadable. And there the force or threat of force is the only game to play.
And then what we have to do is win a war of ideas around that first circle where they become marginalized. Sufficiently marginalized and not supported within their society.
So, and arguably that has happened to some degree even with how chaotic Afghanistan and Iraq look.
Joe Rogan: Well, there certainly been more penetration than there was than more than 50-60 years ago but the majority of the population is still like really deep into their culture.
Sam Harris: Yeah, yeah.
Joe Rogan: They have a weird setup. They only have one city. Cabo is the only real city, right? And Afghanistan is just filled with like tribes, right? Essentially?
Sam Harris: Uhm, yeah, yeah. I mean I haven’t been there so I can’t speak but
Joe Rogan: Yeah, I’ve only read third hand but a bunch. But I heard about McCain talk about it. Where he, I believe one of his quotes was that “It’s run the same way as it was when Alexander the Great was around.”
Sam Harris: Right.
Joe Rogan: It’s just amazing.
Sam Harris: And some of that tribalism isn’t strictly a religious problem. Tribalism is a problem and religious tribalism is a problem.
And these are, you know, these are uhm, any idealogy that fundamentally divides one group from another and prevents them from recognizing their common humanity is a problem.
So not all of that is religion. Some of it is racist, some of it is tribal. Uhm, but the role that religion plays in confounding this are our best intentions. E
ven, so even if our, we only had the best intentions and they were not mingling with our worst intentions, even if it was not about, even if it was just to go to Rwanda to help people, even if they don’t have oil, and we don’t have no national security interest.
But they take out their machetes and start killing their neighbors, we’re gonna put our lives on the line to just stop the violence. It’s… the problem is, it’s just, there’s no elegant way to do it.
You wind up killing innocent people. You wind up.. You can’t, you can’t commit enough resources to build a civil society. You can’t, it takes too long to teach people what they should want. You know.. it’s just, it’s uhmm
Joe Rogan: So you sort of reconcile
Sam Harris: It’s a hard problem.
Joe Rogan: You sort of reconcile our military actions. You reconcile the corruption, all the fucked up you say, all the fuck-ups.