It seems to me that these campaigns have done far more hurt than the way the rest of the world wants to treat us than anything else that we could ever have done.
Going to these places and blowing up buildings and killing how many hundreds of thousands of innocent people died in Iraq and how many people are dying every day in Afghanistan, do you think about the numbers that have been piled up?
Just the actual raw statistics is as motivation for these people.
Sam Harris: Well, I think, it’s had paradoxically it has both effects. It has uhm, because look at… if we didn’t go in to certain situations like when Libya’s kicking off, the resistance was desperate for us to come in.
And we looked at the kind of mealy mouth approach we took and just sort of letting our allies to take the lead, uhm, that looked a little bit like cowardice and we’ve got a lot of grief for not actually being active enough to help prop up, you know the Libyan
Joe Rogan: Right. But that’s a pretty extreme case. You got a guy’s been a dictator forever and people are literally
Sam Harris: But Osama Bin Laden was the same case.
Joe Rogan: But the people were not riding in the streets.
Sam Harris: Because he was a better dictator. I mean it was worse, arguably worse in Iraq. There were more reasons to go in. And the people were uhm, there was every expectation that the people…
Enough of the people were ready to be rid of Saddam that we could have been treated as friends. And uhm, and yeah, it was a disaster.
Because for mainly, because we underestimated the level of sectarian violence that was gonna begin the moment we took the lid off.
Joe Rogan: People didn’t even know about that before they went in to the
Sam Harris: Well, a lot of people didn’t… you know… We didn’t even know the difference between Sunni and Shia.
I mean you had, you had.. bloopers of our you know, White House press conferences where they’re getting the people’s affiliation wrong and not even thinking about that they’re interchangeable.
Joe Rogan: Do you think that the debates that you’ve had with these, like fiercely religious people, have they given you a more of a pessimistic thought or idea on how on how we need to handle people in other parts of the world where their entire culture’s run by religion?
I mean does it, do you like lose a bit of hope for rational conversations to the point that where you know what, you have to engage militarily.
There’s no other option. You cannot get by with debate. You can never get by with rational thought. You can never get by with reason.
You’re talking about cultures that wanna murder you for burning some pages accidentally. You talking about a culture that wants you murder for drawing their guy.
Sam Harris: Right, right. Yeah, well I think, it’s not, it doesn’t, is not partition so easily by state but I think, I kinda view it as kinda eccentric circle. So we’re talking about Islam here for a moment.
You have this sort of this center of the bulls eye of doctrinal crazy global Jihad as Islam, where yeah, I think Al Qaeda and Al Qaeda-like thinking that’s just a deal breaker.
I mean what war would that be a subset in the Muslim world. And they’re… it’s not our idea that we’re at war with them. They’re at war with us. They endlessly talk about it.
Joe Rogan: So we’re innocent?
Sam Harris: We’ve done nothing. They are running a very different game in their heads. It’s not about land. It’s not about the Palestinians. It’s not about..
It is they’re living.. they got this 7th century or 14th century goggles they’ve looking at the world through and you know, if we, if we pipe Baywatch over a satellite dish that’s an offense that they’re willing to die for.